Need to Buy

[PannyDeters]

Bear with the new guy, please.

Now I need film. One local shop said $16 each, minimum of ten. Another said $17 each, minimum of five.

Wouldn't it be better to just order from Kodak? I was told B/W is only $9.44 or so.

Also, I read that Wal-Mart develops it and I looked yesterday. A sign said "Movie Film - $4.88 a roll." Is this a good place (for the novice) to go? It beats the $20 or so I was quoted elsewhere.

Do I need to buy a lightmeter? Can I get one at Radio Shack or a regular camera place?

I saw a Bell and Howell projecter on eBay that was guarenteed to work. Several people had bid. It's around 12 bucks so far. Is this a good buy? My plan is to buy something that is claimed to work and that others have bid on. Is this a fairly decent plan?

Also, do I need to buy a lens cover, filter, anything like that right now or should I just shoot some stuff first?

Thanks.

-Danny

[monobath]

That's a lot of questions. I can offer you some suggestions on some of them, newbie to newbie, and hopefully some of the more experienced folks will chime in too.

Film: My experience is limited to Kodachrome and the two Kodak B&W films. Based on the winning combination of lowest prices and convenience, I've decided to buy all my Super 8 film directly from Kodak.

For Plus-X and Tri-X B&W film, I buy at $9.90 per cartridge from the Kodak Online Store, here:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/stor...tml?CATID=6147

It's convenient because you can order online anytime and pay with a credit card.

You can buy Kodachrome that way too at a very reasonable $10.83 per roll. However, if you call Kodak at 1-800-621-FILM and tell them you want catalog number 505 3335, you'll get the same Kodachrome film INCLUDING processing for only $13.54 per roll. A mailer is included in the film box. Then you just address the mailer to Kodak in New Jersey:

KODAK Premium Processing att: MOVIE FILM
16-31 Route 208
Fair Lawn, NJ 07410

It costs 83 cents to mail it. This is cheaper than any other processing options I've seen advertised on the web, cheaper than buying processing mailers from B&H or other sources, etc.

As for processing of B&W films, I have no recommendation. I intend to process my own as soon as the chemicals I just ordered from ArtCraft arrive.

I have no experience with WalMart processing, but I've read several posts on this board that discuss this. From what I read, some folks have been satisfied, some not. Try a search on this forum.

Light Meter: If your camera has a built in meter, then you don't necessarily need a handheld meter. But is your camera meter accurate? What percentage of the frame does the meter cover? Will your camera allow you to shoot in manual exposure mode? Will you be shooting in situations that tend to fool the camera's meter? Bottom line, if your camera has a meter built in, and it is either accurate or at least consistent so you can adjust for any inaccuracy, then you can get by without a handheld meter for most shooting situations. But if you plan to shoot at the extreme highs or lows of light or contrast, then an external meter might help. I'd suggest waiting until you've shot a few rolls, and see how satisfied you are with the results.

Projectors: I know little about projectors. I'm still researching this area myself. Make sure it handles the type of film you want to project. Some projectors handle only regular 8mm, some only Super 8mm, and some handle both. I almost bought a regular 8mm Bolex 18-5 projector, until I saw spare bulbs for sale for $99 each. Ouch.

Lens cover: YES. Dirt is the bane of all fine optics. Keep your lenses covered when you are not shooting.

Filters: Your camera probably has an 85A built in. You don't need it for B&W. For tungsten balanced color film, you shoot indoors without the filter, and outdoors with the filter. The camera or the lens typically has a tungsten / sunlight switch that disengages or engages the filter, respectively. Use it in outdoor daylight shooting (or whenever your main light is natural light) to avoid a bluish cast to your tungsten balanced film.

A skylight or UV filter screwed onto the front of your lens will help to protect it and keep it clean. A circular polarizer comes in handy for outdoor shooting. It eliminates reflections on glass and, depending on the angle to the sun, causes the sky to look more intensely blue.

There are a host of other filters you might consider, but read up a little about filters before you start buying a bunch of them. Many years ago when I bought my first medium format still camera (a Bronica ETRSi), I bought one each of nearly every filter that would fit my lens, maybe 25 or 30 different filters. Of all those filters, there are only three or four of them that I use regularly.

[PannyDeters]

Wow, thanks.

The light meter (says "F 40 30 20 10 S", right?) doesn't work. Unless it needs film to work. I put batteries in and the meter never moved.

How much is a light meter (cheap) and can I buy one locally?

On that Kodak, is there a minimum buy?

WHat's the turnaround? (Wal-Mart says 2 weeks)

Where can I find a skylight or UV filter?

My camera has no tungsten switch.

I went to www.super8sound.com. Why is all their film so expensive?

Some film can't be shown on projectors, right? But can ALL film be transferred to video or computer? If so, why would you want the non-projecting kind?

I'm reading up as much as I can to cut down on the amount of questions.

-Danny

[monobath]

I'm going to give you my best answer based on reasoning, not on practical experience in cinematography. Hopefully, an experienced cinematographer on this forum will straighten me out if I'm wrong.

First, there are many inexpensive light meters available on Ebay all the time. Few of the meters on Ebay are cine meters, and while it isn't essential to have a cine meter, it seems to me like they would be slightly easier to use than non-cine meters for movie cameras. Whatever meter you buy, avoid those that have selenium cells. Selenium celled meters grow increasingly inaccurate over many years, and most of those type meters are already more than 30 years old.

Non-cine light meters typically yield a reading that is either an exposure value, or a shutter speed and aperture combination that is derived from the exposure value. That works great for still photography, since you control the exposure by setting any one of a number of related combinations of shutter speed and lens aperture.

But with movie cameras, you usually can only set the lens aperture and the frames per second rate to control exposure. And the fps rate is usually chosen for reasons other than exposure, so that leaves you with aperture. A few movie cameras also let you vary the shutter angle over a small range, but most have fixed shutter angles. The amount of time that each frame of movie film is exposed to light, you could call it the equivalent shutter speed, is determined by the frames per second rate and the angle of the shutter opening. Light meters desigined for cinematography usually give you an aperture and/or an EV that is based on the fps rate and shutter angle you specify.

You can calculate the exposure given each frame for any particular fps and shutter angle. The formula is:

Time = (fps x 360) / shutter opening

For example, if you are shooting at 18fps and your shutter is open for 140 degrees, then

(18 x 360) / 140 = 46 or 1/46th second.

If shooting at 24fps, then

(24 x 360) / 140 = 61.7 or 1/61th second.

Clearly, each frame of film gets more exposure time at 18fps than it does at 24fps given the same shutter angle. The film exposed at 24fps would require a slightly larger lens aperture (smaller f/number) to obtain an equivalent exposure.

So if you were going to use a non-cine meter to determine the aperture needed to get the correct exposure on your film, you'd first figure the effective shutter speed for the fps rate you want to use (do this once and memorize it for 18 and 24), then meter and set the speed to that value or as near as possible in order to read off the required aperture.

I used to have a Gossen Luna Pro incident light meter years ago. It's a very good meter. They usually go for about $50 on Ebay, sometimes less. It's not a cine meter, but you could use it as I've outlined above.

[monobath]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The light meter (says "F 40 30 20 10 S", right?) </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about that. Sounds more like a film counter measuring from start to finish in 10 foot increments. If so, it would most likely only activate when a film cartridge is loaded into the camera. What kind of camera is it? Maybe someone else who has that camera will know what that is.

Some cameras have a second battery compartment for the meter, often a small round metal cover with a coin slot for opening and closing it. These type battery compartments usually hold one or two small round wafer-like batteries, such as those used in calculators and wrist watches. If they are mercury, you won't be able to buy them in the US. But there may be more-or-less compatible batteries that will work.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> How much is a light meter (cheap) and can I buy one locally? </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any well-equipped camera store will sell them. They are not cheap, especially cine meters. Figure on $375 to $800 new. My Sekonic L-508 is the regular one, not the cine version. It has a cine mode, but it assumes a 180 degree shutter. You have to manually apply a correction factor to the reading if your shutter angle is different. My Minolta Auto 4 F has a similar capability, but I'd think that one optimized for cinematography would be a far better choice. Something like a Sekonic L-508C Cine or L-608C Cine may be a lot more directly useful. Others on this forum can probably offer advice on specific meters, but I'd probably hunt for a used one on Ebay no matter what. Search in the Photo and Optics category for CINE LIGHT METER.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">On that Kodak, is there a minimum buy?

WHat's the turnaround? (Wal-Mart says 2 weeks)

</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

No minimum. I can't say about turnaround, as I've just sent off my first four cartridges of K40 this week!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Where can I find a skylight or UV filter?

</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any well-equipped camera store. Tiffen or Hoya are good inexpensive brands. Maybe $20 or $25 for a 77mm diameter. Take your movie camera with you to ensure you get the right size.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> My camera has no tungsten switch.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Over my head, here. My camera has the switch on the lens. Some have it on the camera body. It might look like a light bulb symbol for tungsten, and a sun symbol for sunlight. Some cameras activate the filter automatically based on the cartridge type that you insert (something about the way the cartridge is built, I think). Cameras that automatically apply the filter usually have a way to disable it. You'll need a manual for your camera, I think.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I went to www.super8sound.com. Why is all their film so expensive? </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I noticed that myself. I have no idea. Proud of it, I guess.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Some film can't be shown on projectors, right? But can ALL film be transferred to video or computer? If so, why would you want the non-projecting kind? </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

This question is really over my head, too. But, I'll hazard, perhaps incorrectly, that negative film, or reversal film that is processed to a negative, could be projected, but it would look, well, negative. Could be a cool effect in small doses! In general, negative film has greater exposure latitude than reversal film, so your footage could still be salvageable even if the exposure wasn't dead on. I guess you'd print it to a positive film for projection. I'm not sure what you do with it when transferred, but I assume you convert it to a positive image for editing.

[Jerome Cain]

Mono answered most everything. Mono must know what to do,... Best way to get b/w or k40 even etak.160 from kodak online direct but most people avoid use etak.160 bec pf grains. K40 is best.Store sell hgher because of cost of deliever and tax and where is profit? That is why the store needs at least a dollar or two dollars to profit. About transfer is only reversal since negative is different process of transfer because of projector could not do the project the negative colors. I used light meter with my minolta very well but understood wont be working with other camera because of gauge as I understand. It is sort of unreliable but good way to learn how to use for your own benefit how it asa works and etc... My transfer from film into dvd format wont disappoinment you at all even my clients loved it because it is reasonable price and fine transfer! Jerome, deaf filmmaker

[PannyDeters]

OK, yeah, that meter on the side is to show how much film is left.

The light meter is a small orange-red arrow in the viewfinder. It's always out unless I point the camera DIRECTLY at a light. Then it goes away. There is no in between. It's either in or out.

And as for light meters, are we talking about those small handheld things that you always see people holding up toward what they want to film? For some reason I though I read in that Robert Rodriguez book that he got his for fifty bucks. I figured Radio Shack would have a cheapo model. There's no way I can drop 300 on one.

I figured out more about ProSound's film. I was looking at the Pro film which includes processing and is originally cut from 16mm or 35mm stock. That's why the price. Their regular Kodak stuff is much cheaper (16) but not as cheap as Kodak.

Hey Jerome, are you a native of the U.S.? I only ask because of the way you phrase things.

-Danny

[Jerome Cain]

Doing movie's math real fun. Danny, I am deaf that i could not speak english in my mind to write since I got to memory english to write down although sign language is my primary language. Mind my phrase this time? eh ha,... Jerome, deaf filmmaker

[Colorburst300]

Hey Danny,

you asked about processing, and i'm the most recent Wal-Mart tester on the list, so I'll give you my input being a beginner myself.

I've heard lots of negative comments about Wal-Mart film processing, but most of the complaints came from incompetant workers at the photo processing counter. Bear in mind that the people at Wal-Mart DO NOT handle your super-8 film, nor do they even know whether or not they process it. you just have to drop a roll into the envelope and write "super 8 movie film" in the bottom special instruction. The turnaround is approx. 2 weeks, and it's been pretty reliable since I've gone there, although the only thing that irritates me is that Wal-Mart deals with Fuji, and Fuji doesn't process your Super-8 roll. Dwayne's Photo in Kansas processes it, but Fuji has to spot your roll and realize that they can't do it and so it gets sent off to Dwayne's. My only issue is that so many people handle your film package in the process, so it's probably easier to get lost, but I've had good luck so far.

Yes, it is only 4.88 a roll, much cheaper than if you sent it out yourself, and being a beginner I can't complain about the quality. I mean, it's processed super-8 film, not much of a technique to just do it right. It looks quite good, despite what some people say. So, if I were you I'd take my chances. The only thing I'm not sure about is dropping off anything but Kodachrome. Kodachrome is the only film that takes 2 weeks because there's only 2 places that process it in the world! If you're gonna shoot B&W or anything other than Kodachrome you can probebly just bring it to your local camera shop and they can outlab it to one of the many processing labs and get it back in less time, since it's more common.

Kodachrome does look the best as far as image quality goes, but I really don't like to wait 2 weeks to see 3 F***in minutes of film i shot, so I just use Ekxtahrome and Tri-X black & White and bring it to my camera shop. It's about 10 bucks a roll to process. But if you don't mind waiting 2 weeks for your Kodachrome at 5 bucks a roll, then Wal-Mart should suffice.

sorry for rambling. I'm out

~M

[mcarter4121]

Camera shows allow me to handle equipment, scarce as it is, there usually are a few old Weston light meters. I can't resist them for $5 each and now have 4-5. They all work and read pretty close one to the next. One is a cine and it is NOT as good as the others. Go to camera show. sometimes an old Weston shows up on e-bay, but that needle has got to move.